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Discussion:
Bush and abortion
Posts 52 to 55 from a total of 89
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Re: Bush and abortion
[28-Jan-2001]
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posted by: DrLove
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Greetings.
I agree with arif.The president is not in control of the US. Our government is a three way cluster fuck. The congress makes the laws ,the court interprets the laws and the president enforces the laws. The president can not do anything without congress and the court going along.
It seems most people on this forum are just parroting what the media says..
What knowledge of Bush do you have?
Does he speak any other languages?
Is his family exclusively "white"?
As to his supposed Racism why did he appoint a black man as Sec of State? A latino as his personal attorney? Women as Security Advisor,press sec and so on.
As to the late Clinton,white boys ran the white house.
I do not understand all the rage agianst Bush.
I for one as a normal US citizen will always give the president his due until he proves otherwise?
He has not done anything yet?
Abortion is still legal in the US and they are still being performed.Access is not denied anyone.
I do not agree with it, but it is the law of this land.
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Re: Bush and abortion
[28-Jan-2001]
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posted by: Ziggy
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I've been watching this forum with growing amazement. Another forum was discussing the qualities of internationals. Taking those definitions, there weren't many internationals debating on this forum.
My views on Bush are clear, I have stated them clearly and unambiguously, HOWEVER, he IS head of state in the USA now. Can't change that for the next four years. Every bloke deserves a chance - even Bush.
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Re: Bush and abortion
[29-Jan-2001]
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posted by: arif
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Your response shows just how little credit you give to the flexibility and the development of Islam and Christianity (and for that matter, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and all of the other relgions). Can any intelligient person possibly say with a straight face that neither Christianity nor Islam have made attempts to reconcile the conditions of their times with their theology? While it is true that the Catholic Church has certain well-known points of view regarding abortion and contraception, it is also well-known that Catholic priests and nuns that have contact with everyday people often try very hard to improve the lives (not always perfectly) of the people whom they serve. I don't have to point to Mother Teresa to make that point. Moreover, Protestant churches have a multitude of points of view on abortion. Your belief that there is uniformity throughout the faith only shows that you have not done your homework.
With regards to abortion, Islam is far more liberal on this topic than the Catholic Church. Islam and Judaism have very similar positions on when abortion is an acceptable choice for a woman. If a woman's health or life is in danger, she is not merely allowed but required to have an abortion. As in Judaism, Islam would rather save the already living than to take a chance to bring the fetus to term. As for rape and incest, abortion is seen as a reasonable option for the mental sanity of the woman (again, according to doctrine). As for a woman's voluntary choice of abortion, different schools of thoughts ("maddhabs") vary on this point but some never allow abortion voluntarily, most allow a sixty day window for abortion, and some allow a forty day window. As for abortion for economic reasons, different maddhabs have different opinions. The only reason for abortion that is universally forbidden throughout Islam is abortion for the gender of the fetus. The reason for this has to do with historical factors in pre-Islamic Arabia.
Your other comments on the handling of women in Islam really is an insult to my mother (who chose to be a housewife) and my aunts and cousins (many of whom are physicians, university professors and professional workers). By your standards, they generally would be conservative, but they have aspirations and desires and they also had some notions of living an "Islamically"-acceptable lifestyle. Don't you think that they are entitled to do so if they wished? My family is failrly typical in that women are often more conservative than men in religious practice. Having said that, I certainly won't argue that the status of women in Islam can stand a great deal of improvement, but don't fool yourself into believing that there is not tremendous room for improvement even in the West.
As for conservative Christian groups in America, they are a part of society too. I know many conservative Christians and most of them are not the monsters that you make them out to be. I, as an agnostic, often find their thoughts enlightening or, at the very least, informative. Thid doesn't mean that I agree with them on much of anything. When people are a part of society, they should be involved in the development of the society. They might not be right and they might not do things for the best, but their view should be reflected at least in part. While this may not seem democratic to you, it certainly isn't democratic to exclude them altogether.
I really do wish that you would read up a bit on Islam, Christianity and Judaism with regards to abortion and other issues of today. You might be surprised about what you learn.
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Re: Bush and abortion
[31-Jan-2001]
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posted by: allan
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thanks, arif, for contributing to the discussion. i disagree with you and most others here about abortion, but yours is always the voice of reason, intelligence and thoughtfulness. for the record, i believe that both abortion and the death penalty are wrong in all circumstances. i would no less plead for the life of the murderer who killed my mother than to encourage my sister not to abort because of rape. (the death penalty, then, is my strongest disagreement with bush.)
for those who are painting bush as some sort of right-wing racist extremist monster, i'll remind everyone that gore's views haven't always been what they are now. early in his congressional career, gore did say that abortion was murder, and he voted according to that point of view. during the presidential campaign he also confirmed his agreement with the death penalty, being no different from bush except perhaps for the finer details. i'm not sure about clinton's views, but they may very well have also evolved leftward since the 1970's. it seems to me that bush's only mistake is that he didn't change his mind, or that his beliefs evolved in the opposite direction...
i find it interesting that while the republican "big-tent" is still big enough to be able to tolerate pro-choice republicans, log-cabin republicans, etc. (and they even thrive, to some degree), that democrats have shown no tolerance towards those it would consider "anti-choice" within their party. not too long ago, bob casey, then democratic governor of pennsylvania, was denied the opportunity to speak at a nominating convention because of his well-known pro-life views. his offense was in believing that abortion was neither a democratic nor a liberal cause, but rather an elitist one...
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